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linktree Topic: Huge F**king Forking Drama with Daimonin and Copyright Infringement
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« on: May 22, 2015, 09:05:29 am »

Bad news, folks! It appears that Atrinik in its current state is illegal!!!
http://opengameart.org/content/daimonin-graphic-and-sound-resources#comment-37504
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Mr., i am, with a good chance, longer in open source as you and i have, with a good chance, given more to the people as you.
It is your kind of attitude and missing respect which makes me angry. Which makes artists angry. I have seen alot of them leaving just because that. See, that is the core of the "daimonin artistic rule": You have to ask nicely. We even tell you that no one was ever denied. But still some are just not able to do that because it complete against their believe and mind set.


Yay! Using my GPL to produce free alternatives to my server is not okay! And the Daimonin founder appears to have permission to use ripped sprites from SSI Gold box games or he is in process of gaining it. I dunno.

For some reason people get angry, when people fork their project (which they earlier forked themselves) without asking their permission, especially if that is some MMORPG they're making money of. Even if it is free and open source.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 09:08:43 am by snv »  Logged
Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 09:25:29 am »

We do not distribute Atrinik image and sound resources under the GPL. Over the years, we've made great amount of effort to identify specific artists we've used resources from.

From the arch/COPYING file:

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The Atrinik project uses images from various free sources. You can find
credits for the images in the LICENSE file in the image's directory, or
in the top level directory. The license_check.py script will scan all
LICENSE files and display the contributors.

The LICENSE files mention the project or the author where the image(s) in
question came from, and their usage terms/license. In many cases, this
can be difficult to track down, so if you find an image that is
incorrectly credited, please let us know immediately by emailing the
following address (replace " {AT} " with @):

 - admin {AT} atrinik.org

You can also find us on GitHub at https://github.com/atrinik
or contact us in the forums at https://www.atrinik.org/


The same holds true for the Atrinik client sound files, which also have LICENSE files attached to them.

I'm not aware of any copyright infringements to date (nor has anyone contacted us). As far as I know, we use content that we made, or took from open source/free-to-use graphics sites and properly attributed their creators (if their names could be tracked down).
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 09:50:36 am »

Cleo, the problem is that Michael Toennies (Daimonin's founder) has illegally used some sprites from Dark Queen of Krynn and other SSI games. I've no idea where the Daimonin's sound resources came from, but they may be illegal as well.

And Wizards of the Coast has already bullied another MMORPG, Tibia, for just the use of the word "Beholder", which is actually a trademark, like "Mickey Mouse".
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Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 10:57:34 am »

I see, thank you for bringing this to our attention. It seems the beholder graphic was taken from Dungeon Craft, which doesn't seem to include it any longer (perhaps due to similar issues, I'm not sure). I'll remove it from the game ASAP.

Are you aware of any other such problematic graphics? And yes, a lot of the sound files are indeed of questionable origin. I've been in the process of replacing them with really free alternatives for a while, but the process for that isn't fast...

It's also annoying that some people keep being butthurt for half a decade and don't actually pay attention to facts. The reason Atrinik has Crossfire cited as the fork and not Daimonin is because Atrinik was rewritten over the years using Crossfire source code as base, with virtually no Daimonin code left, only some of the features it also implements. There is no Daimonin content. But old habits die hard I guess. It's a shame that some people just can't put their differences aside and try to work together, and only work on spreading FUD (such as the "hacking" accusations some years back).

Anyway, thanks again. :)
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 11:40:30 am »

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It's also annoying that some people keep being butthurt for half a decade and don't actually pay attention to facts.

I don't understand Michael Toennies. He acts like he owns everything and the artists were working for hire. While at the same time he has himself forked Crossfire and used free graphics, which was actually drawn for Nethack or came from Dink Smallwood.

Quote
I see, thank you for bringing this to our attention. It seems the beholder graphic was taken from Dungeon Craft, which doesn't seem to include it any longer (perhaps due to similar issues, I'm not sure).

Good to know. Unfortunately there is little exchange between upstream and downstream, so these kinds of copyright issues bugs may do a lot of damage, till everyone is aware. I had plans to use this beholder sprite in my Android strategy project, but by sheer luck decided to commission artist a better sprite, so they money weren't wasted improving SSI's property.

Quote
Are you aware of any other such problematic graphics?

Illithid/Mind Flayer (cthulhu like creature) sprite appears to be from SSI games. But don't trust me on that, check yourself or better yet ask people at FRUA forums if the sprite sheets contain sprites they recognize.

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I've been in the process of replacing them with really free alternatives for a while, but the process for that isn't fast...

I've personally drawn a beholder sprite: http://opengameart.org/content/dread-oculus

You can use it if you wish, although it is somewhat worse than SSI's one or the beholder I've commissioned to the artist. There is a lot of isometric stuff on my OGA account.

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And yes, a lot of the sound files are indeed of questionable origin

Daimonin's "Artistic Credits" file mentions http://www.futurewaveshaper.com/ as origin, which does give CC-BY license, although I'm unsure if they allowed to do that. Their site does look somewhat untrustworthy and quickly made. It is very common for various crooks to sell stuff they don't own, like the infamous allofmp3.com. Moreover, I'm unsure if all sounds come from http://www.futurewaveshaper.com/


Good luck solving this mess.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 11:43:02 am by snv »  Logged
Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 12:26:55 pm »

Check the Crossmagi project (https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossmagi/). Basically anything prefixed dc_monster_* was ripped from SSI games.

proof:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101212
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Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 12:31:50 pm »

Quote
He acts like he owns everything and the artists were working for hire.


Yes, this has been his stance regarding any sort of content in Daimonin, likely since the very beginning. His defense is that he doesn't want forks to "steal" the content of "his" content creators. In other words, he takes from the open source community what he wants and contributes nothing in return. And then he's surprised that people leave to go do their own thing, free of his leash.

Quote
llithid/Mind Flayer (cthulhu like creature) sprite appears to be from SSI games.


Another Dungeon Craft sprite that was animated by the Crossmagi project, which releases the work under GPL... that's bad news, it was supposed to be the sprite for a rather key demon in the game's plot. :(

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I've personally drawn a beholder sprite


Thank you very much, I might just use (might modify it for some sort of a combat animation). IMHO it's very nice. Were you inspired by the beholders from Baldur's Gate? :)

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Good luck solving this mess.


Thank you, and thanks again for letting us know about this so swiftly.
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 01:13:39 pm »

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Yes, this has been his stance regarding any sort of content in Daimonin, likely since the very beginning. His defense is that he doesn't want forks to "steal" the content of "his" content creators. In other words, he takes from the open source community what he wants and contributes nothing in return. And then he's surprised that people leave to go do their own thing, free of his leash.

Unfortunately such fraud looks like a tendency. I've seen similar situation at gamedev.ru, where one crook has tricked numerous artists (mostly talented art students) to work for free, promising them some future profits. They created him some state of art 3d assets, but in the end he have just dismissed them. The other con man got himself that way some nice turn-based strategy. I've managed to persuade one of his artists to work for me, because I'm paying him real money for the art. Another smartie was seen selling 3d assets from online FPS he doesn't own, while artists were just astonished at this chutzpah, because he was selling stuff at the same forum he found the tricked artists. But that is our crazy evil Russian homeland, while Michael appears to be from more civilized country.

Quote
Another Dungeon Craft sprite that was animated by the Crossmagi project, which releases the work under GPL...

What were they thinking? Or maybe that was made on purpose... because otherwise Crossmagi is a great project.

Quote
IMHO it's very nice. Were you inspired by the beholders from Baldur's Gate?

I had just googled various beholders for reference and the palette comes from http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/044/d/2/dnd__beholder_by_balduranne-d7hizoq.png

just avoid calling it "beholder", because is a trademark.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:15:24 pm by snv »  Logged
Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 01:48:12 pm »

Crooks are everywhere, no matter the country. What upsets me the most is that Michael points at us as if we're the bad ones who magically moved all the resources to GPL, while he himself overrides every single image they use (many of which were originally GPL) with their "Artistic License", which we've ran through the FSF who stated it was incompatible with the GPL (and they thought that the wording "overrides the GNU GPL" is not even possible under the copyright law).

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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2015, 03:05:32 pm »

It appears that the original Crossfire is too polluted with a lot of illegally ripped content, from various sources, like some obliques projection games, stock art collections and even Starcraft!

For example the http://crossfire.real-time.com/images/GreatDemon_111.gif was actually ripped from Dark Legions:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/darklegions/sheet/27246/

therefore http://crossfire.real-time.com/images/mdemon2.gif would be deriviative work

while archon sprite obviously comes from Starcraft
https://sourceforge.net/p/crossfire/code/HEAD/tree/arch/trunk/monster/chaos/archon.base.111.png

I'm not sure if that is fair use.
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Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2015, 03:32:55 pm »

I'm not sure about the legal status of work by a disbanded (bankrupted) company (Silicon Knights, maker of Dark Legions).

Hm, I don't remember the Archon sprite from Starcraft; commit message for that says "arch: adding an Archon by Ketche"...
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2015, 04:32:45 pm »


I'm not sure about the legal status of work by a disbanded (bankrupted) company (Silicon Knights, maker of Dark Legions).

I guess Square Enix now owns Silicon Knights assets.


Hm, I don't remember the Archon sprite from Starcraft; commit message for that says "arch: adding an Archon by Ketche"...

This one http://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/60077/
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Offline snv
Posts: 9
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2015, 05:19:19 pm »

The worm (http://crossfire.real-time.com/images/g-worm_111.gif) is from Final Fantasy IV for SNES:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/ff4/sheet/5210/


I've no idea why it got unnoticed for such a long time.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:20:57 pm by snv »  Logged
Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2015, 06:22:41 pm »

Oh, it's been downscaled so much that I didn't realize there was a shape in the smoke. Clever.

Thank you, I'll let the Crossfire maintainers know ASAP.
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