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Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« on: August 04, 2010, 09:51:27 pm »

I filed bug # 149 but Cleo closed it as invalid, and I think it deserves further discussion.

There currently are five classes in-game:

Priest, Warrior, Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin.

Two of these classes connote a masculine gender (Priest, Sorcerer) while the other three are gender-neutral (see http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_Female_Warlock_called if you think Warlock connotes a male gender)

It would seem to me that since both male and female characters are playable in-game, classes should reflect this as well.

There are two solutions to this problem: (1) using gender-neutral class labels or (2) having non gender-neutral classes use gender-specific labels that reflect the gender of the character being played.

Thus, the labels would be as follows:

(1) Cleric, Warrior, Mage, Paladin, Warlock

(2) Priest(ess), Warrior, Sorcerer/Sorceress, Paladin, Warlock

With solution #2, the client (or server, not sure which) would have to check the gender flag of the player and then choose the correct label. This would add a small bit of code to the game. Solution #1 obviates the need for this extra gender-checking code.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 11:38:58 pm by NiteStar »  Logged
Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 10:02:36 pm »

Neither involves any code changes at all - both are just a few lines adjusted in the NPC's script at most.

There is also option 3: do neither. Atrinik is not the planet Earth. It has a different culture.

ETA: Referring to a site like answers.com doesn't mean much. It's like Yahoo Answers. According to Google:

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:14:09 pm by Cleo »  Logged
Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 10:11:40 pm »

Well you don't consider it a problem, so there doesn't have to be option #3 :p Options are solutions only for those who see this as a problem.

Personally, I think we should be sensitive to gender issues in-game, and would prefer to see one of the two solutions implemented. :P

EDIT: How does it not involve any code changes at all? When you do a /who, isn't the class name displayed? It would have to be changed globally, throughout the game. I'm not talking just about the script here but in naming the classes in the first place.

EDIT #2: Just realized, when we do a /who, the game says "Male Thela Sorcerer" so if solution #2 is implemented then the gender designation should come out of that. I guess my preference would be solution #1, then, as saying a "Male Dwarf Priest" is a bit redundant. :P
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:15:01 pm by NiteStar »  Logged
Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 10:18:55 pm »

You're wrong if you think such a minor change requires a code change. Option 1 would require editing the script and changing the name of the classes defined in the archetypes, while option 2 would require editing the script and adding 2 new classes (so 2 new arches, giving the same bonuses, just differently named) - and it could be made so it's applied to older characters as well through a 5 line script using the player/apartment upgrader tool.
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Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 10:29:47 pm »

OK well, I'm not a coder. If it's such a minor change, though, then why not implement it?  :?
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Online Cleo
Developer
Alex Tokar

Posts: 580
Gender: Male
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 10:33:06 pm »

Because I don't change things for the sake of changing things.
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Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 10:52:31 pm »

This isn't change of the sake of change's sake.

It's responding to issues that exist in the real-world, as well as in-game.

Players wishing to play a female character, or female players, may be put off at not having such choices in-game, and might get offended by this.

The English language is very complex in this manner, saying things the wrong way, or leaving something out, can have horrible consequences. :(
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Offline idicus
Developer

Posts: 136
Gender: Male
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2010, 04:32:26 am »

*COUGH* a female Warlock would be called a Witch
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I am not retreating! i am simply attacking in a different Direction!
Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 04:39:16 am »

Wrong.

Quote
Q.  Are Witches only women?

A.  No, although women do seem to predominate in the Craft overall. In fact, some traditions have only women practitioners, just as others have only men. A male Witch is simply called a Witch, never a warlock and it is considered an insult to call a male Witch "Warlock". The word "Warlock" actually means "oath breaker". Some traditions of Wicca separate between female/male. The word "Wicce" pronounced (Wik-kay) designates a female Witch and "Wicca" pronounced (Wik-kah) designates a male Witch.


Source: http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/faq.htm

Quote
This was a much more difficult question to answer than I first thought
it would be.  This is due to the fact that in both the “Factual” (and
I mean that word in its loosest terms throughout my answer) and
“Fantasy” worlds there is much contradiction between gender specific
terms and actual definitions of these people/characters and their
powers.
However, having waded through hundreds of “magic” sites I have been
able to come up with the definitions below.

Witch: Factual, non gender specific
“Those who practice Witchcraft are called Witches, no matter their
sex.”
http://www.crescentmagazine.com/rites/burningtimes/witchcraft.html
“Many Wiccans prefer not to use the terms "Witchcraft" or "Witch" in
association with their religion, as they believe the word has too many
negative connotations. Many Pagans who self-identify as Witches do so
to reclaim or redefine the word. The individual's preference should
determine the use of terms. The terms "Wiccan" and "Witch" apply to
both male and female practitioners. “
http://www.bloomington.in.us/~pen/boileraux.html

Witch: Fantasy, often female (but not always)
“A witch is a more powerful feminine version of a Wizard”
http://www.fandomchicks.com/lotr/fanfic/pom/darkness01.html



Warlock: Factual, non gender specific
“A very common misconception is that a warlock is a male Witch. This
could not be further from the truth. Warlock means "oath breaker," and
can be applied to either sex. A Warlock is someone who betrays the
trust of a coven. “
http://www.crescentmagazine.com/rites/burningtimes/witchcraft.html

Warlock: Fantasy, usually male (but not always)
“Warlock- A Warlock is a mixture of Mage and Warrior. These
necromantic warriors are skilled in the ways of physical combat, but
unlike the Warrior they picked up a few books and studied. Because
then are literate, they're able to cast spells”
http://www.mystic-adventure.org/classes.htm


[goes on to explain about sorcerers and mages]

Source: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=38123
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Offline Mamoru
Developer
Edwin Miltenburg

Posts: 625
Gender: Male
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 11:35:39 am »

Well, Cleo already answered your question.
However, I'll still reply because you refer to the Craft.
Here's my reply:

...
Atrinik is not the planet Earth. It has a different culture.
...

Besides that, Atrinik has a different system of deities.
Which makes your post (once again) unrelated to classes.
Even though I understand your concern about discrimination, I agree with Cleo.

No-one is left out in Atrinik because of their class or anything else.
Discrimination is not tolerated in the game or on the site.
~Kiana~
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:39:41 am by Kiana »  Logged
Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 08:09:52 pm »

I think maybe because English isn't your (C&K) first language you don't get the implications. But it's OK, that's why we're debating this. :P

And I wasn't trying to pull IRL-deities and worshipping systems into the game; rather, was trying to refute Idicus's notion that witches = female & warlocks = male. All evidence I've seen states that that's merely a misperception/misconception, rather than reality, in both the on-line and off-line worlds. :)
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Offline Mamoru
Developer
Edwin Miltenburg

Posts: 625
Gender: Male
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2010, 10:00:59 am »


I think maybe because English isn't your (C&K) first language you don't get the implications. But it's OK, that's why we're debating this. :P

Actually, I have a Cambridge FCE and CAE. I attended bilingual education in school. I've tried to answer in my previous reply to this topic...

And I wasn't trying to pull IRL-deities and worshipping systems into the game; rather, was trying to refute Idicus's notion that witches = female & warlocks = male. All evidence I've seen states that that's merely a misperception/misconception, rather than reality, in both the on-line and off-line worlds. :)

If this were the bugtracker that statement would probably marked Invalid. This is Atrinik and a warlock is (in short): a unisex class, trained in fighting with both weaponry and magic but totally disregarding religious devotion.

By the way, it is "misconception" the way I learned it. ("misperception" is valid American English so that's not a correction.)
~Kiana~
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 10:02:36 am by Kiana »  Logged
Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2010, 01:14:17 pm »


If this were the bugtracker that statement would probably marked Invalid. This is Atrinik and a warlock is (in short): a unisex class, trained in fighting with both weaponry and magic but totally disregarding religious devotion.


Right, and that was my point. However, sorcerer is decidedly male/masculine (female would be sorceress), and priest is the same (female would be priestess).

This is why I suggested changed "sorcerer" to "mage" and "priest" to "cleric" or "healer" -- those are both gender-neutral equivalent words.

Oh, and it was marked invalid in bugtracker, even though there are two gender-specific classes in the game. Of course, if there were two female-specific classes introduced into the game, then that would balance things out and my Libran sensibilities of fairness and equity wouldn't be screaming their heads off at me to try and get things changed and convince K&C of the necessity of this. :P (Perhaps we could have Valkyrie, Sea Hag, Nymph, or  some other such female-only classes to balance out the male-only classes ...) :P

Quote
By the way, it is "misconception" the way I learned it. ("misperception" is valid American English so that's not a correction.)
~Kiana~


I actually meant both words, and both meanings. :P
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Offline Mamoru
Developer
Edwin Miltenburg

Posts: 625
Gender: Male
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 01:54:41 pm »

...
Right, and that was my point. However, sorcerer is decidedly male/masculine (female would be sorceress), and priest is the same (female would be priestess).
...

Well then, in Atrinik:
Sorcerer: a unisex class, proficient in magic.
Priest: a unisex class, intensely devoted to their god.
~Kiana~
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Offline NiteStar

Posts: 466
Gender: Male
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 01:57:40 pm »


Well then, in Atrinik:
Sorcerer: a unisex class, proficient in magic.
Priest: a unisex class, intensely devoted to their god.
~Kiana~


So now, you're redefining the English language? :o
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